tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post116317520451302217..comments2023-10-12T06:29:13.317-06:00Comments on Beck: MY TAKE ON "WHAT MATTERS"Beckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06159223254071653666noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post-1163417936138049932006-11-13T04:38:00.000-07:002006-11-13T04:38:00.000-07:00What reparative therapy seeks to fix is incomplete...What reparative therapy seeks to fix is incompleteness and undeveloped parts of our identity. I don't see how that applies to being artistic or sensitive (and I may misunderstand what parts of person are being presumed to be necessarily attached to their gayness).<BR/><BR/>Ultimately, I don't buy it. Gay is a sexual thing by definition, not a social, cultural, pesonality, or whatever categorical thing that extends necessarily to other parts of a person. The fact that there is a high association is interesting, but clearly it's not a necessary connection, and I don't see how anything other than a necessary connection should cause anyone concern about what would happen if they un-gayed themself.<BR/><BR/>It's a fallacy I see all the time, and I'm surprised you guys are going for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post-1163382718526002332006-11-12T18:51:00.000-07:002006-11-12T18:51:00.000-07:00Santorio and Scot: What you add to this dialog is...Santorio and Scot: What you add to this dialog is perfect! I've been thinking a lot about this topic of how to separate what one "is" verses just being "gay". The two are more integrated within me and I can't seem to separate the two. <BR/><BR/>More to come...Beckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06159223254071653666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post-1163344071691145712006-11-12T08:07:00.000-07:002006-11-12T08:07:00.000-07:00I would normally side with L here, and I still do,...I would normally side with L here, and I still do, in part. Being atracted to men, not artistic, is what classifies us as gay. I think I’ve a post on standby saying near the same thing. But, santorio, you make a good point, they may share a cause, be symptoms of the same disease :-). <BR/><BR/>Also, in looking back on some of the research I have, there may be supporting data. It’s fair to wonder if “fixing” what makes one find men attractive would “fix” you in many other ways.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post-1163276973998647822006-11-11T13:29:00.000-07:002006-11-11T13:29:00.000-07:00L said: "The only characteristic that truly makes ...L said: "The only characteristic that truly makes you gay is being attracted to men"<BR/><BR/>L, i think you're out on a limb here with an arbitrary [though appealing because of its simplicity] definition about what makes one gay. certainly, attraction to men--their bodies, odors, voices--is central, but whatever combination of genetic and environmental factors led to this gay state, has influenced other parts of the personality. assume for a minute that reparative therapy worked for the male attraction part of things--would it also mean being less artistic/creative/compassionate/aggressive etc.? i don't know, no one does. but many of us fear that if we were to lose the attraction to men, we would also lose valued parts of ourselves. better the known demon than the unknown devil. i sense a good science fiction story coming here.Legacy Userhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00716294662219298852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post-1163264745474546232006-11-11T10:05:00.000-07:002006-11-11T10:05:00.000-07:00I didn't mean for this post to be an indictment or...I didn't mean for this post to be an indictment or condemnation of Evergreen. However, it just seems to me like they're "selling" something. I feel hesitant about any therapy groups that are more interested in recruitments than in healing hearts. Maybe it's just me. I don't want to judge anyone who has benefitted from the program... it's just not for me!<BR/><BR/>L: Your concern about my statement has triggered thoughts for another post. Stay tuned.<BR/><BR/>Eric: Great to see you back in the blogging world. I missed your updates and have enjoyed learning from your story. Your example is inspirational. I look forward to more exciting developments.Beckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06159223254071653666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post-1163251958197932132006-11-11T06:32:00.000-07:002006-11-11T06:32:00.000-07:00I don't live in Utah so I don't have any experienc...I don't live in Utah so I don't have any experience with the "headquater" Evergreen folks, but I did have experience last year after my confession with my local Evergreen support group and overall it was a positive experience. It helped me get through the roughest time in the beginning. The group consisted of guys ranging in age from 19 to 40 something with a variety of interests (no one was overly into sports :) ).<BR/><BR/>I learned that Evergreen support groups are not run by Evergreen directly, they are organized and run on a local level by those who agree to abide by the Evergreen principles. Each group is different. It really depends on the guys in the group. I left the group when I felt that I was strong enough. Those groups are not intended to stay in forever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post-1163203161979702092006-11-10T16:59:00.000-07:002006-11-10T16:59:00.000-07:00My characteristics that make me a gay man are beau...<I>My characteristics that make me a gay man are beautiful, admirable, and praiseworthy</I><BR/><BR/>The only characteristic that truly makes you gay is being attracted to men, and I don't really see how that's so beautiful, admirable, and praiseworthy. It just is. I'm just curious how that adds up.<BR/><BR/>Evergreen guys usually come off poorly, I agree. But I wonder if that's because they're forced to be defensive in a society that scoffs and is disrespectful and questions every motive and every statement as disingenuous. I have no doubts some of the folks who defend reparative therapy <I>are</I> disingenuous, and that makes me doubly sorry for those who aren't and are genuinely persecuted for promoting a program that they know from personal experience has value for some men.<BR/><BR/>As for basketball, it may be helpful for some guys to change their view of themself. But, I doubt they make any claim that it's useful for everyone. I'm not ready to start basketball therapy either! ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post-1163200367780088492006-11-10T16:12:00.000-07:002006-11-10T16:12:00.000-07:00KB: As for meat-market, I have no idea. I have n...KB: As for meat-market, I have no idea. I have no personal knowledge of Evergreen and so maybe I shouldn't even address it here... but I know how I feel when I hear those guys speak about what they "know". And all I feel is "sick to my stomach!"<BR/><BR/>SCOT: As for your anecdote, it made me laugh. I guess I'd never make it without improving my lay-up shot. Now, I have been known to have a decent 10-footer... maybe there's hope for me after all???Beckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06159223254071653666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post-1163198320960183632006-11-10T15:38:00.000-07:002006-11-10T15:38:00.000-07:00Hey, there are more than enough guys here to start...Hey, there are more than enough guys here to start a basketball team. I’m just say’n.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I’m with you on the Evergreen guy, of course :-).<BR/><BR/>This reminds me of a quick anecdote one of our friends told us about his time in Evergreen (and, yes, he definitely described it as meat market, but with extra the guilt). I guess there was one therapist, a very handsome guy, everyone wanted… for their therapist. He was booked. Still, this straight man was quite cold and belittling to the gay masses.<BR/><BR/>Then they took the members to play basketball. Our friend is quite a good player and put everyone to shame. At that he gained the friendship of the therapist. That guy would only be friendly to the athletic, masculine gays in a social setting; some sort of carrot and stick thing?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, it didn’t work; neither did the basketball. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26181705.post-1163179700695816912006-11-10T10:28:00.000-07:002006-11-10T10:28:00.000-07:00Aw, come on, Beck, you know that if we all just pl...Aw, come on, Beck, you know that if we all just played a lot of basketball it would "straighten" us right up! ;)<BR/><BR/>I agree...Evergreen gives me the heebie-jeebies. I've heard some attendees speak of it as if it were a meat-market. Others have loved the experience, but frankly, I'm leery of it.Kengo Biddleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12083962910965544925noreply@blogger.com